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	<title>Comments on: Symbols understood by everyone, everywhere (unlike abbreviations)</title>
	<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Clifford Dudley</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-4152</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-4152</guid>
					<description>Seares: this is why Unicode gives us a special symbol for litres. The code point is U+2113, and it looks like a script lower case letter 'l'. It is not included in all fonts, but it is, for example, in Arial. I'm not sure if this forum software will cope with it, but I'll try anyway:  ℓ

Here in Germany you'll see "kmh" as often as "km/h", and it usually pronounced "ka-em-ha" (not "ka-em-pro-ha" or "ka-em-strich-ha").

In English, it should, in theory, be either "km/h" or "kmph" (the p replacing the /, like in "mph"). However, you just as often see "kmh".

As for saying it out loud, the problem is that, like it or not, "miles an hour" rolls more smoothly off the tongue than does "kilometres an hour" (whether you stress the 'i' or the 'o'), which, to my ears, is all the more reason for allowing "kay-em-(h)aitch".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seares: this is why Unicode gives us a special symbol for litres. The code point is U+2113, and it looks like a script lower case letter &#8216;l&#8217;. It is not included in all fonts, but it is, for example, in Arial. I&#8217;m not sure if this forum software will cope with it, but I&#8217;ll try anyway:  ℓ</p>
<p>Here in Germany you&#8217;ll see &#8220;kmh&#8221; as often as &#8220;km/h&#8221;, and it usually pronounced &#8220;ka-em-ha&#8221; (not &#8220;ka-em-pro-ha&#8221; or &#8220;ka-em-strich-ha&#8221;).</p>
<p>In English, it should, in theory, be either &#8220;km/h&#8221; or &#8220;kmph&#8221; (the p replacing the /, like in &#8220;mph&#8221;). However, you just as often see &#8220;kmh&#8221;.</p>
<p>As for saying it out loud, the problem is that, like it or not, &#8220;miles an hour&#8221; rolls more smoothly off the tongue than does &#8220;kilometres an hour&#8221; (whether you stress the &#8216;i&#8217; or the &#8216;o&#8217;), which, to my ears, is all the more reason for allowing &#8220;kay-em-(h)aitch&#8221;.
</p>
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		<title>by: Alex Bailey</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-3274</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-3274</guid>
					<description>Joe... it's not a matter of needing optical correction. It should not be necessary to know the context when using a measure - metric, unlike imperial, does not need context (i.e. type of liquid when using barrels, whether US or UK when using gallons, fl oz, etc). I know that when I see "m" on a road sign it means "metres" in height and width and "miles" in distance but this should not be necessary - all children since the 1970's have been educated to think "m=metre" and this just confuses matters. Even my 10 year old son thinks it's all some sort of joke!

The DfT (well, it's predecessor) have recognised for many years that "m" isn't being used correctly but still choose to do nothing about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe&#8230; it&#8217;s not a matter of needing optical correction. It should not be necessary to know the context when using a measure - metric, unlike imperial, does not need context (i.e. type of liquid when using barrels, whether US or UK when using gallons, fl oz, etc). I know that when I see &#8220;m&#8221; on a road sign it means &#8220;metres&#8221; in height and width and &#8220;miles&#8221; in distance but this should not be necessary - all children since the 1970&#8217;s have been educated to think &#8220;m=metre&#8221; and this just confuses matters. Even my 10 year old son thinks it&#8217;s all some sort of joke!</p>
<p>The DfT (well, it&#8217;s predecessor) have recognised for many years that &#8220;m&#8221; isn&#8217;t being used correctly but still choose to do nothing about it.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joe Oakley</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-3243</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-3243</guid>
					<description>Um... do the people who enjoy using the mile get a look in? Whilst the mile is still the official unit of road length, I'm sure the symbol/abbreviation 'm' will do fine. If any motorist driving along the motorway sees a sign for services in 2m and then turns off two metres later, then they should go see an optician.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um&#8230; do the people who enjoy using the mile get a look in? Whilst the mile is still the official unit of road length, I&#8217;m sure the symbol/abbreviation &#8216;m&#8217; will do fine. If any motorist driving along the motorway sees a sign for services in 2m and then turns off two metres later, then they should go see an optician.
</p>
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		<title>by: Martin Vlietstra</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2939</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2939</guid>
					<description>According to the CGPM standard, symnols for units of measure that are named after people start with an uppercase letter (eg W, Pa, Hz etc), others start with a lower case letter (eg m, s, g).  They have made an exception in the case of the litre with may be written as either upper case or lower case.

For more information, please visit the BIPM website.  The entire SI brouchure can be accessed from www.bipm.org/en/publications/.  Rules regarding the use of upper and lower case letters can be found in Chapter 5 of the brochure.

My own preference is to use lower case if there is a prefix (eg 100 ml), but to use upper case if there is no prefix (eg 5 L).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the CGPM standard, symnols for units of measure that are named after people start with an uppercase letter (eg W, Pa, Hz etc), others start with a lower case letter (eg m, s, g).  They have made an exception in the case of the litre with may be written as either upper case or lower case.</p>
<p>For more information, please visit the BIPM website.  The entire SI brouchure can be accessed from <a href="http://www.bipm.org/en/publications/." rel="nofollow">www.bipm.org/en/publications/.</a>  Rules regarding the use of upper and lower case letters can be found in Chapter 5 of the brochure.</p>
<p>My own preference is to use lower case if there is a prefix (eg 100 ml), but to use upper case if there is no prefix (eg 5 L).
</p>
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		<title>by: Seares</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2920</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2920</guid>
					<description>The one I find obscure sometimes is l for litre. It can be mistaken in many fonts for a 1, especially if written without a space. If there is a space it can look like an I. Maybe that's why you often see ltr or litre used to avoid confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one I find obscure sometimes is l for litre. It can be mistaken in many fonts for a 1, especially if written without a space. If there is a space it can look like an I. Maybe that&#8217;s why you often see ltr or litre used to avoid confusion.
</p>
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		<title>by: Alex Bailey</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2909</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2909</guid>
					<description>Daniel,

I know what ' and " are supposed to mean... I was merely pointing out that their normal use in the UK is much more confusing than the continuing use of "m = mile".

To be brutally honest, from the viewpoint of getting metric used here in the UK I am quite happy to tolerate "T" for tonnes or KM where km should be used (outside of "official" signage and documentation) because at least it means that somebody is trying. I just can't abide the fact that a government department who admitted that "m" and "M" shouldn't be used for miles 18 years ago has done nothing to fix it - and it almost looks intentional!

(Oh... and I work for an American IT company and have spent some time in North America so have had much experience of the # - which interestingly occupies the same key on a US keyboard as the British £ does on the UK keyboard!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>I know what &#8216; and &#8221; are supposed to mean&#8230; I was merely pointing out that their normal use in the UK is much more confusing than the continuing use of &#8220;m = mile&#8221;.</p>
<p>To be brutally honest, from the viewpoint of getting metric used here in the UK I am quite happy to tolerate &#8220;T&#8221; for tonnes or KM where km should be used (outside of &#8220;official&#8221; signage and documentation) because at least it means that somebody is trying. I just can&#8217;t abide the fact that a government department who admitted that &#8220;m&#8221; and &#8220;M&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t be used for miles 18 years ago has done nothing to fix it - and it almost looks intentional!</p>
<p>(Oh&#8230; and I work for an American IT company and have spent some time in North America so have had much experience of the # - which interestingly occupies the same key on a US keyboard as the British £ does on the UK keyboard!)
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2903</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2903</guid>
					<description>Alex,

' means minutes as applied to angles and " means seconds as applied to angles.  

Did you know that in the US the number symbol # is called a pound sign and is suppose to mean pounds of weight.  As in handwritten signs showing the weight of goods using this symbol.  

Tomatoes:  $1.99 #

On a telephone, an automatic operator may cue you to use the "pound sign", meaning the # symbol after entering numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,</p>
<p>&#8216; means minutes as applied to angles and &#8221; means seconds as applied to angles.  </p>
<p>Did you know that in the US the number symbol # is called a pound sign and is suppose to mean pounds of weight.  As in handwritten signs showing the weight of goods using this symbol.  </p>
<p>Tomatoes:  $1.99 #</p>
<p>On a telephone, an automatic operator may cue you to use the &#8220;pound sign&#8221;, meaning the # symbol after entering numbers.
</p>
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		<title>by: Markus Kuhn</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2902</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2902</guid>
					<description>Once every speed-limit sign on this planet uses km/h, the "red circle on white background" will become the international standard symbol for "speed limit in km/h". Additional unit symbols such as "km/h" or "mph" are only needed for as long as two different units are used on speed-limit signs. Ultimately, a unit symbol just clutters the view and should be dropped if the type of sign already unambiguously represents both the quantity ("speed limit") and unit ("km/h") shown.

Unit symbols make more sense on distance signs, for two reasons:

1) Distance signs come in many different shapes, therefore adding "km" to a number clarifies that this is a distance (rather than a road number, exit number, etc.).

2) While speed limits fall roughly within a single decade (20-200 km/h), distances posted on road signs can cover at least five decades (5-500000 m). A unit symbol helps here to resolve any ambiguity that might remain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once every speed-limit sign on this planet uses km/h, the &#8220;red circle on white background&#8221; will become the international standard symbol for &#8220;speed limit in km/h&#8221;. Additional unit symbols such as &#8220;km/h&#8221; or &#8220;mph&#8221; are only needed for as long as two different units are used on speed-limit signs. Ultimately, a unit symbol just clutters the view and should be dropped if the type of sign already unambiguously represents both the quantity (&#8221;speed limit&#8221;) and unit (&#8221;km/h&#8221;) shown.</p>
<p>Unit symbols make more sense on distance signs, for two reasons:</p>
<p>1) Distance signs come in many different shapes, therefore adding &#8220;km&#8221; to a number clarifies that this is a distance (rather than a road number, exit number, etc.).</p>
<p>2) While speed limits fall roughly within a single decade (20-200 km/h), distances posted on road signs can cover at least five decades (5-500000 m). A unit symbol helps here to resolve any ambiguity that might remain.
</p>
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		<title>by: Dave Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2874</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2874</guid>
					<description>George, I would have thought the best spoken form of the unit would be "kilometres per hour".   Why abbreviate it?  You wouldn't say "em-pee-aitch" currently; you either say "miles per hour", or "mile(s) an hour".  In fact there should be no need to state the unit.  As soon as the UK catches up with the rest of the world you will only need to state "50".  If the context is vehicle speed then everyone will know that you mean 50 km/h because that's the unit that the human race uses to measure vehicle speed.  (The only exception will be when communicating with residents of the USA - but I don't think they'll stay in the past forever.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George, I would have thought the best spoken form of the unit would be &#8220;kilometres per hour&#8221;.   Why abbreviate it?  You wouldn&#8217;t say &#8220;em-pee-aitch&#8221; currently; you either say &#8220;miles per hour&#8221;, or &#8220;mile(s) an hour&#8221;.  In fact there should be no need to state the unit.  As soon as the UK catches up with the rest of the world you will only need to state &#8220;50&#8243;.  If the context is vehicle speed then everyone will know that you mean 50 km/h because that&#8217;s the unit that the human race uses to measure vehicle speed.  (The only exception will be when communicating with residents of the USA - but I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;ll stay in the past forever.)
</p>
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		<title>by: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2856</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/07/26/metric-symbols-universal/#comment-2856</guid>
					<description>What's the best spoken abbreviation for kilometres per hour, given that I don't think "kay-pee-aitch" is allowed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the best spoken abbreviation for kilometres per hour, given that I don&#8217;t think &#8220;kay-pee-aitch&#8221; is allowed?
</p>
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