Comments on: TSI cops out http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/ Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:36:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: Martin Ward http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-12010 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:34:36 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-12010 The original NWML consultation discussion paper on enforcement is still available on the NWML website. http://www.nwml.gov.uk/Documents/Reform%20Project%20Policy%20Paper%202%20-%20Enforcement.DOC The discussion paper quotes quite scandalous figures for compliance with Weights and Measures legislation; "Of those businesses inspected, 73,877 or 87.64% were compliant". In other words 1 in 8 businesses are not complying with Weights and Measures legislation. Citing the Rogers Review, the discussion paper also states that enforcement of weights and measures is "a non-priority for Local Governments". http://www.berr.gov.uk/bre/inspection-enforcement/implementing-principles/prioritising-areas/page44051.html The original NWML consultation discussion paper on enforcement is still available on the NWML website.

http://www.nwml.gov.uk/Documents/Reform%20Project%20Policy%20Paper%202%20-%20Enforcement.DOC

The discussion paper quotes quite scandalous figures for compliance with Weights and Measures legislation; “Of those businesses inspected, 73,877 or 87.64% were compliant”. In other words 1 in 8 businesses are not complying with Weights and Measures legislation.

Citing the Rogers Review, the discussion paper also states that enforcement of weights and measures is “a non-priority for Local Governments”.

http://www.berr.gov.uk/bre/inspection-enforcement/implementing-principles/prioritising-areas/page44051.html

]]> by: Philip Bladon/ SI Metric-Matters http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-12002 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:23:25 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-12002 Martin's point: TSO's "turn a blind eye". In my area Trading Standards do not give priority to the enforcement of full metric trading regulations, for example fruit and vegetable market stalls. I'm sure this is because of Trading Standard's limited resources. www. simetricmatters.com Philip Bladon Martin’s point: TSO’s “turn a blind eye”.
In my area Trading Standards do not give priority to the enforcement of full metric trading regulations, for example fruit and vegetable market stalls. I’m sure this is because of Trading Standard’s limited resources.

www. simetricmatters.com Philip Bladon

]]> by: Ezra Steinberg http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11994 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:00:15 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11994 John's comments are "spot on". After all, isn't that the realization (cost of maintaining the tradition outweighs the benefits of change) that drove the decimalization of the currency? Who would go back to Lsd? Who would have allowed old and new currency to co-exist side by side with new currency prices listed first and old currency prices listed indefinitely as "supplementary price indications"???? John’s comments are “spot on”. After all, isn’t that the realization (cost of maintaining the tradition outweighs the benefits of change) that drove the decimalization of the currency?

Who would go back to Lsd?

Who would have allowed old and new currency to co-exist side by side with new currency prices listed first and old currency prices listed indefinitely as “supplementary price indications”????

]]> by: Martin Vlietstra http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11991 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:17:19 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11991 Although the TSOs have a legal obligation to enforce the law, it is generally accepted that they do on occasions “turn a blind eye”. One typical example was at a parent’s open day at one of our secondary schools. Refreshments were served in the language department with the French room rename “Café France” and the German room renamed “Restaurant Deutschland”. All refreshments were prices in Euros (it was 1998 or thereabouts) and Euros could be “purchased” at the entrance to the Language Department at the rate of €2 = £1. (The “Euros” were slips of paper). I hate to think how many regulations were being breached, but many parent actually ordered their refreshments in German or French (thereby testing the pupil’s knowledge of the language). In this case I sincerely hope that the TSO’s would have turned a blind eye since the underlying reason was educating the pupils, not confusing the public. If however they turn a blind eye because the local council wants to make a political statement, that is inexcusable. Furthermore, if they fail to prosecute because their budgets would suffer (I believe that fines go to Central Government and the local council may be awarded costs if the prosecution succeeds), then the system is fundamentally unsound. Although the TSOs have a legal obligation to enforce the law, it is generally accepted that they do on occasions “turn a blind eye”. One typical example was at a parent’s open day at one of our secondary schools. Refreshments were served in the language department with the French room rename “Café France” and the German room renamed “Restaurant Deutschland”. All refreshments were prices in Euros (it was 1998 or thereabouts) and Euros could be “purchased” at the entrance to the Language Department at the rate of €2 = £1. (The “Euros” were slips of paper).

I hate to think how many regulations were being breached, but many parent actually ordered their refreshments in German or French (thereby testing the pupil’s knowledge of the language). In this case I sincerely hope that the TSO’s would have turned a blind eye since the underlying reason was educating the pupils, not confusing the public.

If however they turn a blind eye because the local council wants to make a political statement, that is inexcusable. Furthermore, if they fail to prosecute because their budgets would suffer (I believe that fines go to Central Government and the local council may be awarded costs if the prosecution succeeds), then the system is fundamentally unsound.

]]> by: John Frewen-Lord http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11989 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:48:46 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11989 I agree with many here, in that the process of enforcing trading standards, by definition, cannot be 'neutral'! If you enforce the standards that exist (the very purpose of TSI's existence), then you are not neutral. Metric is, as others have said, the only legal system for most measurements in our world, and the TSI has to acknowledge that. It seems to me that much of the anti-metric sentiment is bound up with our 'traditions'. Tradition IS important in defining what a society is about - but only to the extent that it is a platform on which to build new traditions. A man walking in front of a car travelling at no more than 7 km/h (4 mph), and carrying a red flag, is 'tradition'. But the practice was abandoned when the costs outweighed the advantages. The same is true of most of the ways in which our society functions - we keep them until they become outdated, and the costs start to outweigh the advantages. That includes dealing with two measurements systems - it is no longer cost effective (if indeed it ever was). We need only one system, if only from a cost perspective. Which to choose? With 95% (or more) of the world exclusively metric, the answer to that is pretty obvious! I agree with many here, in that the process of enforcing trading standards, by definition, cannot be ‘neutral’! If you enforce the standards that exist (the very purpose of TSI’s existence), then you are not neutral. Metric is, as others have said, the only legal system for most measurements in our world, and the TSI has to acknowledge that.

It seems to me that much of the anti-metric sentiment is bound up with our ‘traditions’. Tradition IS important in defining what a society is about - but only to the extent that it is a platform on which to build new traditions. A man walking in front of a car travelling at no more than 7 km/h (4 mph), and carrying a red flag, is ‘tradition’. But the practice was abandoned when the costs outweighed the advantages.

The same is true of most of the ways in which our society functions - we keep them until they become outdated, and the costs start to outweigh the advantages. That includes dealing with two measurements systems - it is no longer cost effective (if indeed it ever was). We need only one system, if only from a cost perspective. Which to choose? With 95% (or more) of the world exclusively metric, the answer to that is pretty obvious!

]]> by: Phil H http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11944 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:53:43 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11944 It is good that the TSI at least acknowledge that metrication is relevant to the issue of unit pricing and that it needs to be properly enforced to protect consumers. It is unfortunate that they fail to recognise that the scope of weights and measures (W&M) legislation is inadequate and gives rise to some of the gray areas that may well undermine business confidence in their attempts to comply with it. An essential aspect that is often missed in these consultations is that laws must be logical and consistent as well as clear and simple if those bound by them are to comply in the right spirit. For example under existing law it is alright to advertise say, a "six ounce steak for £2.94" but is not acceptable to express the same offer as "steak 49p/ounce" (unit prices have to be metric or metric plus a supplementary indication) This arises because although they both advertise a price and the information given allows a value for money comparison by weight (albiet imperial) the first version is classed as being descriptive only and does not fall within the scope of the W&M act or the Price Marking Order. Product description in advertising does come under the umbrella of other legislation (Trade Descriptions act) but those laws completely ignore units of measurement. Hence the anomaly. An alternative might be to ammend legislation controlling advertisment practices so that the UK Units of Measurement regulations (which would require metric in the great majority of cases) was referred to in respect of all measurement data in advertising. Either way the proper and consistent application of a single system of measurement to all transactions would go a long way to settling the unending need for guidance and clarification over what businesses can and cannot do to comply with the law. It is good that the TSI at least acknowledge that metrication is relevant to the issue of unit pricing and that it needs to be properly enforced to protect consumers.
It is unfortunate that they fail to recognise that the scope of weights and measures (W&M) legislation is inadequate and gives rise to some of the gray areas that may well undermine business confidence in their attempts to comply with it.
An essential aspect that is often missed in these consultations is that laws must be logical and consistent as well as clear and simple if those bound by them are to comply in the right spirit.
For example under existing law it is alright to advertise say, a “six ounce steak for £2.94″ but is not acceptable to express the same offer as “steak 49p/ounce” (unit prices have to be metric or metric plus a supplementary indication) This arises because although they both advertise a price and the information given allows a value for money comparison by weight (albiet imperial) the first version is classed as being descriptive only and does not fall within the scope of the W&M act or the Price Marking Order.
Product description in advertising does come under the umbrella of other legislation (Trade Descriptions act) but those laws completely ignore units of measurement. Hence the anomaly.

An alternative might be to ammend legislation controlling advertisment practices so that the UK Units of Measurement regulations (which would require metric in the great majority of cases) was referred to in respect of all measurement data in advertising. Either way the proper and consistent application of a single system of measurement to all transactions would go a long way to settling the unending need for guidance and clarification over what businesses can and cannot do to comply with the law.

]]> by: Ezra Steinberg http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11931 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:59:19 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11931 I note this response from the TSI on page 1 to the question "What is the objective of enforcing the legislation?" : "The most important objective of enforcing the legislation is to provide an equal playing field for all businesses and consumers." What better way to provide an equal playing field than to have a *single* consistent system of measurement throughout the country and in all areas of business and commerce, to wit, the SI? I note this response from the TSI on page 1 to the question “What is the objective of enforcing the legislation?” :

“The most important objective of enforcing the legislation is to provide an equal playing field for all businesses and consumers.”

What better way to provide an equal playing field than to have a *single* consistent system of measurement throughout the country and in all areas of business and commerce, to wit, the SI?

]]> by: George Carty http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11927 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:00:11 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11927 Kinda OT, but I wonder if the destruction of much of the traditional British way of life (perhaps by McDonaldization) has boosted the anti-metric cause? Kinda OT, but I wonder if the destruction of much of the traditional British way of life (perhaps by McDonaldization) has boosted the anti-metric cause?

]]> by: Robin Paice http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11919 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:26:38 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11919 Further to the original article, the TSI did subsequently make a submission to the Review of W & M legislation, and this can be found at http://www.tsi.org.uk/policy/nwml_wml_reform.pdf It generally avoids reference to measurement units, with one exception at top of p.4: "For unit pricing to work, metrication may need to be revisited and re-enforced (sic)." How true! If only! Further to the original article, the TSI did subsequently make a submission to the Review of W & M legislation, and this can be found at http://www.tsi.org.uk/policy/nwml_wml_reform.pdf

It generally avoids reference to measurement units, with one exception at top of p.4: “For unit pricing to work, metrication may need to be revisited and re-enforced (sic).”

How true! If only!

]]> by: Ezra Steinberg http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11893 Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:57:24 +0000 http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/03/14/tsi-cops-out/#comment-11893 Yes, but is there a *legal* issue if supplementary indications are wrong, for example? Yes, but is there a *legal* issue if supplementary indications are wrong, for example?

]]>